Off-topic: Mplus annual renewal fee for support, updates and upgrades

[Mike Cheung]

Dear all,

I have been using Mplus since Mplus 2. I would recommend it to others
because of its power on analyzing a variety of models. Another advantage
of using Mplus is its good support. There is a discussion forum
addressing questions related to Mplus. Questions are usually answered
within a day or two. Drs. Muthens are very helpful in solving many of my
problems related to Mplus.

Recently, I am disturbed by the "Annual Renewal Notice" by Mplus. It is
required to pay US$175 annually "to obtain product support, updates, and
upgrades" for that year. Moreover, “after Expiration date add 10% per
month to the total cost” for late submission. Does this mean that Mplus
will not provide support and update when there are bugs in Mplus 3.x if
I do not pay for this annual fee? By the way, the annual SAS license for
SAS/Base and SAS/STAT with support is only US$30 in my university!

This practice is quite different from my understanding that a (good)
software company should provide support, updates, and upgrades for its
software. I would be more than happy to pay more money for a new
version, say Mplus 4, later. However, I am quite reluctant and feel bad
to pay US$175 *annually*, which is free of charge for most software.

I know that there are quite a lot of people using Mplus in SEMNET. I
would like to see if my expectation on obtaining free support, updates
and (upgrades for Mplus 3.X) is reasonable or not.

Best,
Mike

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike W.L. Cheung Phone: [phone]
Department of Psychology Fax: [phone]
The University of Hong Kong E-mail: ***@hku.hk
HONG KONG Website: http://web.hku.hk/~mikewlch
---------------------------------------------------------------------

[Dennis, Helen]

However, to purchase SAS is several thousand dollars, I understand, while purchasing mplus is several hundred . . .
I think charging for technical support and upgrades is pretty typical in the software business, am I wrong?

Helen Dennis
Education Associate, Student Assessment
Delaware Department of Education
PO Box 1402
Dover, DE 19903
Tel: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
***@doe.k12.de.us


________________________________

From: Structural Equation Modeling Discussion Group on behalf of Mike Cheung
Sent: Wed 5/25/2005 2:54 AM
To: ***@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Off-topic: Mplus annual renewal fee for support, updates and upgrades



Dear all,

I have been using Mplus since Mplus 2. I would recommend it to others
because of its power on analyzing a variety of models. Another advantage
of using Mplus is its good support. There is a discussion forum
addressing questions related to Mplus. Questions are usually answered
within a day or two. Drs. Muthens are very helpful in solving many of my
problems related to Mplus.

Recently, I am disturbed by the "Annual Renewal Notice" by Mplus. It is
required to pay US$175 annually "to obtain product support, updates, and
upgrades" for that year. Moreover, "after Expiration date add 10% per
month to the total cost" for late submission. Does this mean that Mplus
will not provide support and update when there are bugs in Mplus 3.x if
I do not pay for this annual fee? By the way, the annual SAS license for
SAS/Base and SAS/STAT with support is only US$30 in my university!

This practice is quite different from my understanding that a (good)
software company should provide support, updates, and upgrades for its
software. I would be more than happy to pay more money for a new
version, say Mplus 4, later. However, I am quite reluctant and feel bad
to pay US$175 *annually*, which is free of charge for most software.

I know that there are quite a lot of people using Mplus in SEMNET. I
would like to see if my expectation on obtaining free support, updates
and (upgrades for Mplus 3.X) is reasonable or not.

Best,
Mike

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike W.L. Cheung Phone: [phone]
Department of Psychology Fax: [phone]
The University of Hong Kong E-mail: ***@hku.hk
HONG KONG Website: http://web.hku.hk/~mikewlch
---------------------------------------------------------------------

[Garry Gelade]

Personally, I object to annual licence fees for technical support and
bug-fixing upgrades, because a piece of software ought to run on the buyer's
machine if its compatible. Upgrades that add features should be optional
purchases.

But vendors will charge what they think they can get away with, and the
market will decide whether MPlus's new terms are "justifiable". I expect
many people will elect to stay with their current version unless the new one
adds some outstanding benefits.

Garry Gelade



-----Original Message-----
From: Structural Equation Modeling Discussion Group
[mailto:***@BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Dennis, Helen
Sent: 25 May 2005 12:18
To: ***@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Off-topic: Mplus annual renewal fee for support, updates and
upgrades



However, to purchase SAS is several thousand dollars, I understand, while
purchasing mplus is several hundred . . .
I think charging for technical support and upgrades is pretty typical in the
software business, am I wrong?

Helen Dennis
Education Associate, Student Assessment
Delaware Department of Education
PO Box 1402
Dover, DE 19903
Tel: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
***@doe.k12.de.us


_____

From: Structural Equation Modeling Discussion Group on behalf of Mike Cheung
Sent: Wed 5/25/2005 2:54 AM
To: ***@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Off-topic: Mplus annual renewal fee for support, updates and
upgrades



Dear all,

I have been using Mplus since Mplus 2. I would recommend it to others
because of its power on analyzing a variety of models. Another advantage
of using Mplus is its good support. There is a discussion forum
addressing questions related to Mplus. Questions are usually answered
within a day or two. Drs. Muthens are very helpful in solving many of my
problems related to Mplus.

Recently, I am disturbed by the "Annual Renewal Notice" by Mplus. It is
required to pay US$175 annually "to obtain product support, updates, and
upgrades" for that year. Moreover, "after Expiration date add 10% per
month to the total cost" for late submission. Does this mean that Mplus
will not provide support and update when there are bugs in Mplus 3.x if
I do not pay for this annual fee? By the way, the annual SAS license for
SAS/Base and SAS/STAT with support is only US$30 in my university!

This practice is quite different from my understanding that a (good)
software company should provide support, updates, and upgrades for its
software. I would be more than happy to pay more money for a new
version, say Mplus 4, later. However, I am quite reluctant and feel bad
to pay US$175 *annually*, which is free of charge for most software.

I know that there are quite a lot of people using Mplus in SEMNET. I
would like to see if my expectation on obtaining free support, updates
and (upgrades for Mplus 3.X) is reasonable or not.

Best,
Mike

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike W.L. Cheung Phone: [phone]
Department of Psychology Fax: [phone]
The University of Hong Kong E-mail: ***@hku.hk
HONG KONG Website: http://web.hku.hk/~mikewlch
---------------------------------------------------------------------

[Mplus Product Support]

I guess I should put my two cents in here as to why Mplus is now
charging an annual fee for updates, upgrades, and product support
after a person has held a license for one year. This is done in lieu
of charging for new versions, not in addition to charging for new
versions. With this new model, as new features are developed, they
will be added to Mplus and be made available right away rather than
holding them for a new Version which will need to be purchased or
updated for a price. This is a model followed by other companies and
is not unusual in the commercial software business for programs with a
distribution like Mplus. The pricing of the contract is in line with
what a new version would cost spread over two to three years.

Linda
--------------
Linda K. Muthen
Muthen & Muthen Phone: [phone]
3463 Stoner Ave. Fax: [phone]
Los Angeles, CA 90066 website: www.statmodel.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Cheung" <***@HKU.HK>
To: <***@BAMA.UA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 11:54 PM
Subject: Off-topic: Mplus annual renewal fee for support, updates and
upgrades


> Dear all,
>
> I have been using Mplus since Mplus 2. I would recommend it to
others
> because of its power on analyzing a variety of models. Another
advantage
> of using Mplus is its good support. There is a discussion forum
> addressing questions related to Mplus. Questions are usually
answered
> within a day or two. Drs. Muthens are very helpful in solving many
of my
> problems related to Mplus.
>
> Recently, I am disturbed by the "Annual Renewal Notice" by Mplus. It
is
> required to pay US$175 annually "to obtain product support, updates,
and
> upgrades" for that year. Moreover, “after Expiration date add 10%
per
> month to the total cost” for late submission. Does this mean that
Mplus
> will not provide support and update when there are bugs in Mplus 3.x
if
> I do not pay for this annual fee? By the way, the annual SAS license
for
> SAS/Base and SAS/STAT with support is only US$30 in my university!
>
> This practice is quite different from my understanding that a (good)
> software company should provide support, updates, and upgrades for
its
> software. I would be more than happy to pay more money for a new
> version, say Mplus 4, later. However, I am quite reluctant and feel
bad
> to pay US$175 *annually*, which is free of charge for most software.
>
> I know that there are quite a lot of people using Mplus in SEMNET. I
> would like to see if my expectation on obtaining free support,
updates
> and (upgrades for Mplus 3.X) is reasonable or not.
>
> Best,
> Mike
>
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> Mike W.L. Cheung Phone: [phone]
> Department of Psychology Fax: [phone]
> The University of Hong Kong E-mail: ***@hku.hk
> HONG KONG Website:
http://web.hku.hk/~mikewlch
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>

[a***@UNLNOTES.UNL.EDU]

I am a doc student and am in no way affiliated with MPLUS apart from the
fact that I use the software and am highly impresssed by its capability and
active support. Personally, I see no problems with the subscription model
used, but allow me to suggest the following regarding its implementation:

1. I read behind the current subscription model (rightly or wrongly) an
intention to push the best features out to researchers as early as possible.
If so, this is to be laudable. May I suggest you further extend this
commitment to customers by tweaking the subscription model so that with each
year of continued subscription, loyalty discounts are given.
2. Reward those who climb onboard early, e.g. doc students, and
continue to reward them as long as they stay onboard, even after they
graduate, e.g. lower subscriptions.
3. With the gaining popularity of MPLUS, the annual subscription should
gradually go down further for all subscribers across the board. MPLUS, like
a good journal, is an excellent tool for advancing knowledge and research.
Its subscription rates should reflect this philosophy (no higher than a
journal?).

Adrian Chan

-----Original Message-----
From: Structural Equation Modeling Discussion Group
[mailto:***@BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Mplus Product Support
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 9:03 AM
To: ***@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Off-topic: Mplus annual renewal fee for support, updates and
upgrades

I guess I should put my two cents in here as to why Mplus is now charging an
annual fee for updates, upgrades, and product support after a person has
held a license for one year. This is done in lieu of charging for new
versions, not in addition to charging for new versions. With this new
model, as new features are developed, they will be added to Mplus and be
made available right away rather than holding them for a new Version which
will need to be purchased or updated for a price. This is a model followed
by other companies and is not unusual in the commercial software business
for programs with a distribution like Mplus. The pricing of the contract is
in line with what a new version would cost spread over two to three years.

Linda
--------------
Linda K. Muthen
Muthen & Muthen Phone: [phone]
3463 Stoner Ave. Fax: [phone]
Los Angeles, CA 90066 website: www.statmodel.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Cheung" <***@HKU.HK>
To: <***@BAMA.UA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 11:54 PM
Subject: Off-topic: Mplus annual renewal fee for support, updates and
upgrades


> Dear all,
>
> I have been using Mplus since Mplus 2. I would recommend it to
others
> because of its power on analyzing a variety of models. Another
advantage
> of using Mplus is its good support. There is a discussion forum
> addressing questions related to Mplus. Questions are usually
answered
> within a day or two. Drs. Muthens are very helpful in solving many
of my
> problems related to Mplus.
>
> Recently, I am disturbed by the "Annual Renewal Notice" by Mplus. It
is
> required to pay US$175 annually "to obtain product support, updates,
and
> upgrades" for that year. Moreover, “after Expiration date add 10%
per
> month to the total cost” for late submission. Does this mean that
Mplus
> will not provide support and update when there are bugs in Mplus 3.x
if
> I do not pay for this annual fee? By the way, the annual SAS license
for
> SAS/Base and SAS/STAT with support is only US$30 in my university!
>
> This practice is quite different from my understanding that a (good)
> software company should provide support, updates, and upgrades for
its
> software. I would be more than happy to pay more money for a new
> version, say Mplus 4, later. However, I am quite reluctant and feel
bad
> to pay US$175 *annually*, which is free of charge for most software.
>
> I know that there are quite a lot of people using Mplus in SEMNET. I
> would like to see if my expectation on obtaining free support,
updates
> and (upgrades for Mplus 3.X) is reasonable or not.
>
> Best,
> Mike
>
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> Mike W.L. Cheung Phone: [phone]
> Department of Psychology Fax: [phone]
> The University of Hong Kong E-mail: ***@hku.hk
> HONG KONG Website:
http://web.hku.hk/~mikewlch
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>

--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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--
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[Shu Fai]

I may not be in a good position to say anything, as I have no access to
Mplus. But anyway, I have been searching for funding to purchase Mplus for a
long time. (A "few hundred" US dollar is a big issue, especially becase we
already have EQS and LISREL. I am so eager to use Mplus that I even thought
about buying it myself.) So I am a potential user/customer of Mplus. The
annual fee might concern me in the near future.

I think paying a fee for support is acceptable. (Whether the exact amount is
acceptable is another matter) However, in my experience, I rarely need to
use any official support in using a software. If there was a serious problem
that I could not solve, most of the times I could usually get support from
the internet (web search, newsgroups, SEMNET, or similar platforms with
users of the programs). Certainly, official support is usually most
trustworthy, and I will try this frist if it is free. But if support is not
free and I cannot afford it, I can decide not to pay, and still hopefully
get the solution by a harder way. Most of the times, there is still a way to
find the solution.

For upgrades, which essentially deliver new features not originally promised
or expected in the original version, I agree that a certain amount of charge
is reasonable and natural. However, as another SEMNETer suggested, the
pricing model itself can be improved. A set annual fee, part of which is for
something that *may* come out in the coming year? What if there is actually
no such upgrade? What if after one year, I found that the new features did
not justify the cost I paid in advance (e.g., the *upgrades* are merely
minor improvments that I think is not even close to a change from 3.0 to 3.3
or 3.5)?

Some software companies just don't sell perpetual licenses. If I know about
this before making the purchase decision, I would think it's OK. I would
take into account the annual license fee as the total cost for the services
I have from the program every year, even though no upgrade are promised.
However, as Linda wrote, "The pricing of the contract is in line with what a
new version would cost spread over two to three years." For an annual
license fee, at least I know what I am paying for in the next year. However,
for the current Mplus pricing model, I am virtually paying in advance, not
for the program itself, but (partly) for some (expected but not promised)
minor version changes which may eventually amount to a major version changes
(again, expected but not promised, as far as I understand).

Last, I don't think it is a common practice to charge the user for anything
that is virtually a bug fix. I virtually never came across any bug-fixing
patches that require me to pay for them. Yes, sometimes patches for porgram
do include new features. However, they are bonus, and the new features could
have been charged does not imply that it is also reasonable to charge for
the bug-fixes.

From the Mplus webpage:
"Diagnosis of abnormal termination of the program"
"Assessment of bugs in the program with possible workarounds"
"Updates consist of small program changes and bug fixes."

I think these should be categorized as bug fixing. It is not unusual for a
company to just ignore the bugs and do not invest further on a patch.
However, if a patch or bug fix is indeed made, they should not be made
avaiable *only* together with upgrades that provide new features. If there
is a bug, the program is not delivering something in the expected way. I
understand that bugs are inevitable, but this is not an excuse to charge the
user for the programmers' mistakes.

My two cents. No offense. Just want to have a rational discussion.

--
Shu Fai
Department of Psychology
The Chinese University of Hong Kong

On Wed, 25 May 2005 07:03:22 -0700, Mplus Product Support
<***@STATMODEL.COM> wrote:

>I guess I should put my two cents in here as to why Mplus is now
>charging an annual fee for updates, upgrades, and product support
>after a person has held a license for one year. This is done in lieu
>of charging for new versions, not in addition to charging for new
>versions. With this new model, as new features are developed, they
>will be added to Mplus and be made available right away rather than
>holding them for a new Version which will need to be purchased or
>updated for a price. This is a model followed by other companies and
>is not unusual in the commercial software business for programs with a
>distribution like Mplus. The pricing of the contract is in line with
>what a new version would cost spread over two to three years.
>
>Linda
>--------------
>Linda K. Muthen
>Muthen & Muthen Phone: [phone]
>3463 Stoner Ave. Fax: [phone]
>Los Angeles, CA 90066 website: www.statmodel.com
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Mike Cheung" <***@HKU.HK>
>To: <***@BAMA.UA.EDU>
>Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 11:54 PM
>Subject: Off-topic: Mplus annual renewal fee for support, updates and
>upgrades
>
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I have been using Mplus since Mplus 2. I would recommend it to
>others
>> because of its power on analyzing a variety of models. Another
>advantage
>> of using Mplus is its good support. There is a discussion forum
>> addressing questions related to Mplus. Questions are usually
>answered
>> within a day or two. Drs. Muthens are very helpful in solving many
>of my
>> problems related to Mplus.
>>
>> Recently, I am disturbed by the "Annual Renewal Notice" by Mplus. It
>is
>> required to pay US$175 annually "to obtain product support, updates,
>and
>> upgrades" for that year. Moreover, “after Expiration date add 10%
>per
>> month to the total cost” for late submission. Does this mean that
>Mplus
>> will not provide support and update when there are bugs in Mplus 3.x
>if
>> I do not pay for this annual fee? By the way, the annual SAS license
>for
>> SAS/Base and SAS/STAT with support is only US$30 in my university!
>>
>> This practice is quite different from my understanding that a (good)
>> software company should provide support, updates, and upgrades for
>its
>> software. I would be more than happy to pay more money for a new
>> version, say Mplus 4, later. However, I am quite reluctant and feel
>bad
>> to pay US$175 *annually*, which is free of charge for most software.
>>
>> I know that there are quite a lot of people using Mplus in SEMNET. I
>> would like to see if my expectation on obtaining free support,
>updates
>> and (upgrades for Mplus 3.X) is reasonable or not.
>>
>> Best,
>> Mike
>>
>> --
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>-
>> Mike W.L. Cheung Phone: [phone]
>> Department of Psychology Fax: [phone]
>> The University of Hong Kong E-mail: ***@hku.hk
>> HONG KONG Website:
>http://web.hku.hk/~mikewlch
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>-
>>

[Mike Zyphur]

All,
I also love Mplus (although once in a while it feels
like love/hate). However, Mplus, for regular users, is
pretty close to $1,000 for the entire package (only
$350 for students) and so $175 sounds a bit steep.
While I am a student and am quite impoverished, I
would be willing to pay *something* per year for
support, as the support is quite fantastic if you use
it. However, I don't think that the discussion forum
requires you to be on a list of subscribers and that
is one of the places where a lot of support can be
found. Also, if there were substantive updates which
occured often, I would pay for those too (as I can't
imagine, for example, that they will not be including
a graphic component to the program soon and that will
be a good addition. Also, the program runs so slowly
with some types of models that multi-processor support
and faster algorithms will be nice).

happy modeling,

Michael J. Zyphur
Department of Psychology
2007 Percival Stern Hall
Tulane University
New Orleans, LA 70118

--- Garry Gelade <***@BUSINESS-ANALYTIC.CO.UK>
wrote:
> Personally, I object to annual licence fees for
> technical support and
> bug-fixing upgrades, because a piece of software
> ought to run on the buyer's
> machine if its compatible. Upgrades that add
> features should be optional
> purchases.
>
> But vendors will charge what they think they can get
> away with, and the
> market will decide whether MPlus's new terms are
> "justifiable". I expect
> many people will elect to stay with their current
> version unless the new one
> adds some outstanding benefits.
>
> Garry Gelade
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Structural Equation Modeling Discussion Group
> [mailto:***@BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Dennis,
> Helen
> Sent: 25 May 2005 12:18
> To: ***@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Off-topic: Mplus annual renewal fee for
> support, updates and
> upgrades
>
>
>
> However, to purchase SAS is several thousand
> dollars, I understand, while
> purchasing mplus is several hundred . . .
> I think charging for technical support and upgrades
> is pretty typical in the
> software business, am I wrong?
>
> Helen Dennis
> Education Associate, Student Assessment
> Delaware Department of Education
> PO Box 1402
> Dover, DE 19903
> Tel: [phone]
> Fax: [phone]
> ***@doe.k12.de.us
>
>
> _____
>
> From: Structural Equation Modeling Discussion Group
> on behalf of Mike Cheung
> Sent: Wed 5/25/2005 2:54 AM
> To: ***@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Off-topic: Mplus annual renewal fee for
> support, updates and
> upgrades
>
>
>
> Dear all,
>
> I have been using Mplus since Mplus 2. I would
> recommend it to others
> because of its power on analyzing a variety of
> models. Another advantage
> of using Mplus is its good support. There is a
> discussion forum
> addressing questions related to Mplus. Questions are
> usually answered
> within a day or two. Drs. Muthens are very helpful
> in solving many of my
> problems related to Mplus.
>
> Recently, I am disturbed by the "Annual Renewal
> Notice" by Mplus. It is
> required to pay US$175 annually "to obtain product
> support, updates, and
> upgrades" for that year. Moreover, "after Expiration
> date add 10% per
> month to the total cost" for late submission. Does
> this mean that Mplus
> will not provide support and update when there are
> bugs in Mplus 3.x if
> I do not pay for this annual fee? By the way, the
> annual SAS license for
> SAS/Base and SAS/STAT with support is only US$30 in
> my university!
>
> This practice is quite different from my
> understanding that a (good)
> software company should provide support, updates,
> and upgrades for its
> software. I would be more than happy to pay more
> money for a new
> version, say Mplus 4, later. However, I am quite
> reluctant and feel bad
> to pay US$175 *annually*, which is free of charge
> for most software.
>
> I know that there are quite a lot of people using
> Mplus in SEMNET. I
> would like to see if my expectation on obtaining
> free support, updates
> and (upgrades for Mplus 3.X) is reasonable or not.
>
> Best,
> Mike
>
> --
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Mike W.L. Cheung Phone: (852)
> 2857-8621
> Department of Psychology Fax: (852)
> 2858-3518
> The University of Hong Kong E-mail:
> ***@hku.hk
> HONG KONG Website:
> http://web.hku.hk/~mikewlch
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>

"I am not wherever I am the plaything of my thought; I think of what I am where I do not think to think."
-- J. Lacan



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
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[Mike Zyphur]

[Mike Cheung]

Dear Linda,

I do not object this business model. It is up to you to decide the game,
anyway. As a psychologist, what I see is merely a communication issue.
It is hard to believe that the customers would pay you happily after
receiving an invoice without saying what's going on.

Actually, if your "two cents" were included in the invoice, I would not
have a negative reaction on this issue. Thanks for your explanation. I
still think that Mplus is a good piece of software and your support is
wonderful though I may not follow this new business model this year.

Best,
Mike
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike W.L. Cheung Phone: [phone]
Department of Psychology Fax: [phone]
The University of Hong Kong E-mail: ***@hku.hk
HONG KONG Website: http://web.hku.hk/~mikewlch
---------------------------------------------------------------------


Mplus Product Support wrote:
> I guess I should put my two cents in here as to why Mplus is now
> charging an annual fee for updates, upgrades, and product support
> after a person has held a license for one year. This is done in lieu
> of charging for new versions, not in addition to charging for new
> versions. With this new model, as new features are developed, they
> will be added to Mplus and be made available right away rather than
> holding them for a new Version which will need to be purchased or
> updated for a price. This is a model followed by other companies and
> is not unusual in the commercial software business for programs with a
> distribution like Mplus. The pricing of the contract is in line with
> what a new version would cost spread over two to three years.
>
> Linda
> --------------
> Linda K. Muthen
> Muthen & Muthen Phone: [phone]
> 3463 Stoner Ave. Fax: [phone]
> Los Angeles, CA 90066 website: www.statmodel.com